Hosted by EIC Mikael Angelo Francisco, Ask Theory shines the spotlight on Pinoy scientific brilliance, in a fun and entertaining “kwentuhan” format. Each episode of Ask Theory features a Pinoy scientist from one of the various scientific disciplines. In a very casual conversation, guests explain what they do in simple terms, as well as share their fascinating stories: how they got into science, the challenges they face, what motivates them to pursue their fields, what future scientists from the Philippines can look forward to, and so much more.
Episode 25: Paano Ba Maging Isang National Geographic Explorer?
This episode features Dr. Lillian Rodriguez, an Assistant Professor at the Institute of Biology in the College of Science. In 2016, she became a National Geographic Explorer, and was given a grant to study the biogeography and evolution of pollinator fig wasps associated with sycomorus figs in the Philippines.
We talked about why fig (balete) trees and fig wasps are important in Philippine ecosystems, some unexpected things we can learn from studying plant-insect interactions, her experience as a National Geographic Explorer, how we can do better at conserving our local biodiversity, why evolution doesn’t really work the way many of us imagine it, and more.
Listen to Ask Theory Episode 25: Paano Ba Maging Isang National Geographic Explorer? here:
EPISODE TRANSCRIPT:
Mikael Francisco 00:22
So you’ve been working from home po, ano?
Dr. Lillian Rodriguez 00:25
Since April last year.
Mikael Francisco 00:27
Ah okay. So what keeps you busy these days?
Dr. Lillian Rodriguez 00:30
Bukod sa work meron din kaming nag start na mga research projects. So yung isa sa Taal volcano. So yung ginawa namin dun is regularly bumabalik kami to look at yung kung ano na yung nangyari sa Taal after the eruption last January. So just checking kung may bago bang halaman na dumating, mga ganon tsaka mga hayop.
Mikael Francisco 00:56
Kung maaalala natin we got a head start on facemasks ahead of the rest of the world because of what happened with Taal last year. So parang nung nagsisimula ang mundo na mag face masks and all, medyo tayo dito sanay na sa facemasks.
Dr. Lillian Rodriguez 01:11
Oo nga e. Lalo na dito sa Manila, nagkaroon ng craze for N95.
Mikael Francisco 01:16
Yes, naalala ko pa yun. And I remember stepping out of my place the the very day after kong mabalitaan sa news yung nangyari sa Taal. And everything was really just covered in soot and ash. So talagang it was…it was weird.
Dr. Lillian Rodriguez 00:31
Oo pero yung nakakatuwa alam mo mga 11 months after the eruption, ang dami nang bumalik na biodiversity dun sa island nung pag visit namin. So we are very optimistic na makakabawi yung mga organisms sa Taal Volcano.
Mikael Francisco 01:49
Yun din yung worry ko. Kasi nung syempre the first thing na iisipin mo pagka pag may nag erupt na volcano na may community around it or may mga nakatira nearby, is e-evacuate yung mga tao. Pero also, yung nature around it. The wildlife, the plants and animals syempre affected sila nung phenomenon. So it’s good that we have teams of scientists like you na talagang nagmo monitor and tumitingin who can provide updates to the public kung kamusta na yung, kamusta na ang mga bagay doon.
Dr. Lillian Rodriguez 02:18
Kaya lang ngayon challenge ulit kasi bukod sa pandemic diba naka alert level 2 sya ngayon. So hindi pa rin kami ulit pwedeng bumalik.
Mikael Francisco 02:27
Yun nga naalala ko parang sa loob loob ko nga, mauulit na naman ba? Ganito na naman ba ulit?
Dr. Lillian Rodriguez 02:33
Sana hindi.
Mikael Francisco 02:34
Para matuloy na rin. Tsaka yun para hindi hindi naman battered masyado yung ecosystem sa paligid ng Taal.
Dr. Lillian Rodriguez 02:41
Sa paligid hindi masyado
Mikael Francisco 02:43
Ah yun. Pero hopefully pag when when you have your results na, we’ll we’ll know more about ano…i’m actually excited to hear about kung kamusta na yung…kamusta na yung lagay ng mga bagay doon. So i’ll be looking forward to your study.
Dr. Lillian Rodriguez 02:55
Sige salamat.
Mikael Francisco 02:56
Pano po ba kayo naging interested sa science, specifically, yung field na pinu-pursue nyo ngayon? And can you tell us a bit about your work, what you’ve been doing over the past few years?
Dr. Lillian Rodriguez 03:07
So bata pa ako talagang very exposed na kami sa nature, sa outdoors. So every summer yun meron kaming trip na usually sa mga beach tsaka sa mga marine protected areas. So talagang ang actually ang first love ko yung dagat talaga. So pinangarap ko na noon na maging marine biologist. Kasi iba yung feeling diba pag lumalangoy ka sa dagat tapos yung Philippines na is considered to be the center of the center of marine biodiversity. So talagang ang ganda ganda ng dagat natin.
Mikael Francisco 03:42
Yes
Dr. Lillian Rodriguez 03:42
Kaya lang at one point, na realize ko na hindi pala ako pwedeng mag dive, kasi masyadong sensitive yung yung capillaries ko sa ilong, so nagdudugo sya palagi so so parang na shatter yung dreams ko nun. Pero fortunately sa sa bio, na meron akong naging mentor na pinush nya kami sa plants naman. Yun na yung kinuha ko na linya. So yung sa plant ecology na ako na nag specialize. So yun so ang ginagawa ko tinitingnan ko yung as in I go all around the Philippines tapos specifically, naghahanap ako ng mga puno na parang yung tulad ng mga balete. Tapos yun yung nire-record ko yung presence tska nag co collect ako ng mga fruits nila.
Mikael Francisco 04:29
Do you have a favorite plant? Or yung a specific favorite species of ano na pinagaarlaan nyo?
Dr. Lillian Rodriguez 04:36
Yung…ang common name nya is sa Tagalog hawili, sa Bisaya labnog. So that is ficus septica yun talaga yung pinagaaralan ko most of the time. Pero most people will find it weird kasi actually siguro mga 90% of the time, makikita mo sya when you go out of your house. Kahit nandito lang sa Manila kasi ganon sya ka ka wide spread. So for some people, hindi nila masyadong vina value yung plant na yun pero for me specifically, yun yung value nya kasi kaya nyang mag survive anywhere kahit sa city, kaya nyang tumubo sa mga bato, sa mga walls, sa mga creek, sa mga sidewalk. So yun. So para sa akin that it’s very useful as a plant kasi nga kaya nya yung ganon.
Mikael Francisco 05:24
So while, so while I was looking up more information about you and your work, medyo common yung mga fig trees tsaka fig wasps. And I’ll have to admit hindi sila masyadong familiar. Hindi ako masyadong familiar sa kanila. So maybe you could tell us a bit more about their relationship and why they’re important to the Philippine ecosystems?
Dr. Lillian Rodriguez 05:42
So yung fig saten ang tawag natin sa kanila common name mga balete tsaka mga mga tibig. So palagi yan akong tinatanong bakit ka nag aaral ng balete di ka ba natatakot yung ganon. So yung for some some reason, hindi ako…hindi ako ginagalaw ng mga spirits sa balete. Siguro alam nila na kasi I mean well na hindi ko naman sila iha-harm that I actually study them. Yung balete kasi and the rest of the figs, yung sobrang useful nila sa ecosystem natin kasi they fruit all year round. So ka pagka yung puno mo namumunga sya ng buong taon, ibig sabihin meron kang assured na pagkain para dun sa mga ibang hayop na naka, naka rely sa kanila. So yung mga ibon, yung mga paniki even yung mga small na mammals like yung mga mga daga, yun. So ibig sabihin every throughout the year, you are able to provide them food. So para sa akin they’re really important kasi, they are able to sustain other animals.
Mikael Francisco 06:46
Okay konting ano tayo. Let’s let’s play a quick game.
Dr. Lillian Rodriguez 06:49
Sige po.
Mikael Francisco 06:49
So merong kaming 2 minute challenge. We ask our guests to explain a concept to a…an imaginary 7 year old child. And you have to do it within two minutes. So for you, I would like you to explain the concept of evolutionary biology to that 7 year old child. So I have a timer here, you have 2 minutes and your 2 minutes starts now.
Dr. Lillian Rodriguez 07:14
Yeah sige. So evolutionary biology parang masyadong malaki na term. Pero actually, very simple lang sya para sa mga kids. So isipin nyo yung lahat ng mga traits nyo mga katangian nyo ngayon dahil yan sa isang reason sa past natin. So meron yang reason kung bakit ganyan yang itsura nyo. Kunwari ako maitim ako diba hindi yan dahil lang gusto kong maging maitim. So kadalasan yung mga tao na nakatira sa Pilipinas, usually maitim yung skin nila kasi kelangan natin sya. So in the, in the past, yung mga tao dun siguro mapuputi, pero yung mga nagsu survive yung mga maiitim kasi mataas yung araw sa atin. So ganun yung sa evolutionary biology tinitingnan namin kung ano yung mga katangian natin ngayon tsaka mga katangian ng mga halaman ng mga hayop and ano yung naging reason bakit yun yung katangian nila. So ano yung naging cause nung mga traits na makikita ninyo ngayon sa mga tao. So for example tayo. Hindi rin tayo makapal yung buhok, makapal yung balahibo diba. Kasi hindi natin yun kelangan. Kasi pag nandito ka sa Pilipinas tapos makapal yung balahibo mo, sobra kang magpapawis diba. Kasi yung balahibo pang pampainit sya ng katawan. So yung mga nakatira sa malalamig na lugar kunwari sa Korea, sa Japan, sa US, sila yung masmakakapal yung balahibo. Sa ganon yung simpleng way ng pag pag explain kung ano yung evolutionary biology so pagtitingin nung mga traits nungg mga katangian nating at pag pagaral kung ano yung posibleng naging reason kung bakit ganon yung traits natin.
Mikael Francisco 09:04
Wow ang galing. You have you actually have 9 seconds to spare. So well done. Ang galeng. Pasok na pasok. What are some of the unexpected or surprising things that we can learn when we study plant and insect interactions?
Dr. Lillian Rodriguez 09:20
So yung isa sa mga tingin ko na magandang maaral with yung plant-insect interactions is very loyal sila. So yung mga interactions na to, millions of years na yung tagal nila. So specifically dun sa fig tsaka fig wasp, 80 million years na silang magka partner.
Mikael Francisco 09:42
Wow.
Dr. Lillian Rodriguez 09:43
So yun yung, yun yung sigurong something you should learn from them, yung fidelity and loyalty.
Mikael Francisco 09:50
Talagang stick to each other lang sila.
Dr. Lillian Rodriguez 09:53
Ganon. Tapos isa din is yung sa Philippines naman, very common na mabilis mag mag speciate or magkaroon ng bagong species ng insects. Usually sa mga ibang lugar, mabagal mabagal yung process na yan. Pero sa atin, siguro dahil sa unique natin na geology na maraming islands, na iba iba yung age ng islands, ito siguro yung nag co-contribute kung bakit ang dami dami nating insect species dito sa Philippines.
Mikael Francisco 10:26
Curious po ako. Is there a simpler way of of parang finding out or determining kung ang isang species na tinitingnan natin ay bagong species na. Parang at what point can you say that a certain organism is already already something that is a new species?
Dr. Lillian Rodriguez 10:43
Generally wala. Kasi kelangan mo talaga ng expertise. Pero with insects hindi kasi talaga sya well studied na grupo unlike yung mga birds of mga even halaman tsaka mga bats. So kapag nagaral ka ng isang grupo ng insects, na wala pang gumawa nun before, tapos ginawa mo dito sa Philippines, siguro mga 80% chance na meron at meron kang makikitang bagong species. Oo specifically sa fig wasps kunwari. Ang estimate namin ngayon 10% palang yung na describe sa science. Ibig sabihin meron pang 90% remaining to be discovered.
Mikael Francisco 11:25
Wow. When I was growing up, isa sa mga favorite kong basahin ay yang National Geographic. So ang dami kong mga ganong magazines especially yung mga issues nila about dinosaurs and wildlife. And in 2016, you became a National Geographic Explorer. So kwento nyo po sa amin ano ba ang ibig sabihin ng National Geographic Explorer. Ano ba yung pinagaralan nyo as a as an explorer, and how was your overall experience?
Dr. Lillian Rodriguez 11:54
So yung yung marami yang palaging question na papano ka nagiging National Geographic Explorer. So ano yan ina-apply sya actually. So initially hihingi ka ng funding sa Natgeo to to create, to do a project, a small project. Pero unlike yung ibang mga funding agencies, yung yung National Geographic ang pag decide nila kung bibigyan ka nila ng money or hindi is actually kung ano yung tingin nilang potential mo to influence yung field mo. So hindi yung potential ng project mo, yung potential mo as a person. Pati tinitingnan nila ano yung mga characters mo anong characteristic mo, ano yung vision sa sarili mo, anong anong vision mo sa country mo, sa sa field mo, so yung ganon. So it’s really that potential that they are looking for. So ako i’m very luck na napili ako sa sa Asia program. Tapos, actually you’d be very surprised ang daming mga Filipino na National Geographic Explorers. So siguro ngayon sa community hub namin mga 50 plus kami. So ganon ganon sya karami. Hindi lang…hindi lang sya napu-publicize. So specifically for Natgeo yung ginawa ko is nag nag field work ako sa Visayas tsaka Mindanao. So ganon din so pumili ako ng mga 6 sites sa iba ibang islands. Tapos nag visit ako tapos na dinocument namin kung ano yung mga types ng mga balete, nagkuha kami ng mga fruits, yun. So parang para sa akin medyo usual type of field work lang ang difference lang dapat sa Natgeo meron kang documentary team na kasama. So parang yun yung medyo nanibago ako kasi meron naka dedicate na na photographer na naka nakasunod talaga sayo so ang daming pictures. Ang daming pictures na puro ikaw, yung ganon. So very unusual yun for us kasi nga sanay kami na kami kami lang yung magkakasama na kami lang yung nagkukuhanan ng pictures, ng ganon. Pero yung isa ko pang na appreciate sa Natgeo kasi yung yung title na explorer, ano sya lifetime mo na syang i ca-carry tapos they actually provide training for us specifically for yung scientist, ang pino-provide nilang training is yung science telling. Kasi nga like what you are doing, mahirap diba for scientists to actually tell their story, to tell their research, kasi wala yun sa training namin. So yung yung Natgeo they are making us realize na hindi kami makaka affect ng change if we don’t tell our stories. So yun yung I think yun yung din sa isa sa na appreciate ko with this podcast and with Flipscience kasi nga it’s really trying to fill up that huge gap.
Mikael Francisco 14:44
Oh, thank you po for saying that. Ako naman talagang misyon din namin na makilala kayo ng mga Pinoy. Kasi, medyo sawa na rin kami sa narrative na sobrang behind tayo sa science or, or yung pagtingin ng tao na hindi ganon ka-importante ang science. Gusto lang natin talaga natin rito ma-realize ng mga tao na science is life. Science is part of everyday life. And the more we learn to appreciate it and appreciate the people who are working in the fields of science, the more we can understand about ourselves and about our lives.
Dr. Lillian Rodriguez 15:28
Yes, totoo yan.
Mikael Francisco 15:29
Oo, and and I don’t know science to me is really fascinating. Lalo na yung nga yung telling stories. And speaking of fascinating things, I want to know siguro ano yung pinaka fascinating na natutunan nyo during the course of your professional career?
Dr. Lillian Rodriguez 15:44
Para sa akin, yung how fast evolution can be. Kasi diba parang tayo pag sinabi sayo evolution, iisipin mo si Darwin tapos yung mga apes…
Mikael Francisco 15:58
Yes, exactly.
Dr. Lillian Rodriguez 15:59
Yung mga birds, yung mga finches, yung ganon. Pero actually pwede mong makita yung evolution right before your very eyes. Kasi pagka lalo na sa Pilipinas nga dahil nating isla. Pag nag punta ka sa Mindanao tapos nagpunta ka sa Luzon, ibang iba talaga yung makikita mo na uri ng mga halaman, uri ng mga insekto, so alam mo na somewhere na merong nangyari talaga. So it’s very…it’s an “alive” process, yung evolution. Hindi sya something that happened in our past. It’s something that is happening right now.
Mikael Francisco 16:33
Sobrang agree ako dyan. Naalala tuloy when you mentioned yung differences between yung insects sa Luzon and insects sa Mindanao, a few years back, I did an interview with Mr. Ronnie Pedales.
Dr. Lillian Rodriguez 16:44
Oh nice.
Mikael Francisco 16:45
Oh yeah I really enjoyed that talk. And we talked about yung pinagaaralan nya yung flies and basically, forensic entomology in general. And I remember asking him kung bakit sobrang importante na mag collect ng samples, pumunta dun mismo sa ano. And he he said exactly the same thing na a fly that you can, an insect that you’ll find in Luzon is not exactly the same as that insect that you will find in Mindanao. Kasi yung yung environment nila, yung circumstances, yung buhay nila yung ecosystem nila, it influences yung changes dun sa insekto na yun so much that yung dalawang sample na yun magkaiba. So tama. Agree ako ang ganda nung sinabi nyo na yun nga, we can see evolution before our very eyes, and it happens faster than our traditional ideas of evolution.
Dr. Lillian Rodriguez 17:35
Oo kasi iniisip natin millions of years diba so parang isiipin mo hindi ko na yan maabutan kung anong mangyayari.
Mikael Francisco 17:43
Oo and I think realizing that evolution happens so fast can help us better appreciate it or understand it.
Dr. Lillian Rodriguez 17:50
May isa pa akong na very very interesting sa mga insects and sa mga plants. Actually yung well…with most with most na lahat ng biological na organisms. Karamihan sa sa kanila, except humans, meron lang yan dalawa na main goal in life. Yun so yung isa is to survive tsaka isa is to reproduce. So very simple lang yung buhay nila. So yan lang yung dalawang iniisip nila. I need to survive and I need to reproduce. The rest secondary na yan so I think as a species, tayong humans, nakalimutan natin yung ganyang simplicity ng life, na parang andami dami nating kino-complicate sa buhay natin when in fact ang kelangan lang talaga natin to be able to survive and to reproduce. Yun so yun yung yun yung nature ng most organisms except humans. So so sana we take a leaf from their book na we need to simplify yung yung buhay natin and wag na natin masyadong i-complicate.
Mikael Francisco 18:57
Ayan na. Ang ganda ayan na yung advice mo para sa mga ano sa mga listeners natin. Talking about complicated things, over the years, siguro lahat tayo familiar sa sa constant na messaging na we have to save our environment. We have to conserve our local biodiversity. Lahat tayo naririnig natin yan. And it’s it is a responsibility we placed upon ourselves and rightly so. But the thing is, even after so many years, decades of doing this, parang may mali pa rin tayong ginagawa. So I guess my question is how can we do better at this complicated task of conserving our local biodiversity. How can we improve?
Dr. Lillian Rodriguez 19:36
Syempre yung pinaka main changers dyan would really be the government, diba kasi nasa kanila yung structure and yung funding, and yung influence to do that. Pero so isa isa sa mga main things that we can do is always to lobby yung kung ano yung we want done, ano yung tingin natin na good na mga ordinances yung ganon. So meron naman mga tao na gumagawa nun pero gusto ko rin i shift sya to what we can do as individual na citizens diba. Yung International Dark Sky, I think yun yun
Mikael Francisco 20:12
Yes
Dr. Lillian Rodriguez 20:13
Yun so for us very simple lang yun na gagawin. Na parang ay kelangan pala yung ilaw natin hindi siya naka direct pataas, dapat pala pababa kasi nakakatulong pala yun sa mga bats and other night creatures diba. So simple lang sya pero actually helps other creatures na to co-exist with us. So yun so, isa pa din yung yung isa sa mga advocacy ko ngayon yung pagtatanim ng mga native trees. Yun so marami sa atin diba yung mga plantito plantita ngayon. Pero kadalasan ang ang tinatanim nila yung mga exotic tsaka mga mamahalin. Pero yung actually makakatulong tayo, masmakakatulong tayo sa environment kapag ka magtatanim tayo nung mga native talaga na halaman yung nakikita talaga natin dito. Kasi karamihan ng mga wildlife natin, nakadepende sa kanila. So either sa flowers, sa nectar or dun sa bunga nila. So makakatulong tayo lalo sa biodiversity natin kapag ka ganon yung gagawin natin.
Mikael Francisco 21:21
Yun very good pieces of advice. Ako susundin ko yan. Ako pa naman nagplaplantito plantita na rin ako e so, tatandaan ko yan. If someone wants to reach out to you or has some questions about your work what’s the best way to contact you?
Dr. Lillian Rodriguez 21:34
So meron akong Facebook, yung Lilian Rodriguez. Meron din akong Instagram account so lilian_j_rodriguez. So ito nga yung isa sa mgamga influence sa amin ng Natgeo na kelangan nga daw to to push forward yung yung science na kahit simple photographs lang na merong short captions, makakatulong pa rin to make it mainstream nga yung ginagawa nyo ngayon diba. So yun pwe pwede yun sa Facebook tsaka sa Instagram.
Mikael Francisco 22:04
Pupuntahan ko yung Instagram mo mamaya. Ako pa naman natutuwa ako pag ano, pag nag sha share yung scientists nung photos of their work, or naaalala ko agad si Dr. Aimee Lynn Dupo na ang hilig hilig nyang mag share ng…
Dr. Lillian Rodriguez 22:16
Oo everyday si maam, grabe sipag
Mikael Francisco 22:19
Diba? Galing no tsaka sobrang bilib ako kasi may pictures tsaka may konting trivia or minsan, may may interesting story about pano nya nakuha yung picture na yun or what what happened on that day so I think doing that simple thing, it also helps humanize yung science and get more people interested in it. Kasi yung engagement ang ganda e, yung mga nagtatanong ay may ganyan pala pong spider. Nakikita ko yung mga ganong comments e.
Dr. Lillian Rodriguez 22:43
Oo nagtatanong din ako kay maam e.
Mikael Francisco 22:46
Dami kong natututunan actually, sa sa inyo. Sa mga scientists na nakakausap ko andami kong natututunan and i’m really happy na you guys are are just so generous with the with what you know and are open to sharing it with the public. What if someone wants to follow in your footsteps someday? I will follow the same professional path as Doc Lilian. What’s your advice for them lalo na’t kung magpra practice sila dito sa Pilipinas?
Dr. Lillian Rodriguez 23:13
Sakin, never stop asking questions. Kasi yun yung basic foundation ng science diba. Tapos sa field namin actually madali lang lalo na ngayong pandemic kasi lalabas ka lang. Titingin ka lang either sa garden mo or dun sa plant box mo. Tititigan mo lang sya ng mga 5 minutes meron ka nang maiisip na question talaga na bakit ganyan yung mga millipede, bakit sila nagkukumpol kumpol? Bat ito lang yung kinakain nila? Bat yung isa ayaw nila? Yung ganon diba sobrang simple pero walang makakasagot sayo nun kasi hindi pa sya nagawa diba. Ikaw lang yung nakaisip nung tanong na yun isipin mo diba. So sobrang daming tanong na pwedeng sagutin hindi mauubusan.
Mikael Francisco 23:56
Tama yan. Agree ako dyan. So sa mga nakikinig sa Ask Theory remember, never stop asking. Thank you so much Doc for sharing your time and your expertise with us. And you know, good luck sa projects mo. I’m especially looking forward to hearing about pag natapos na yung project nyo sa Taal. And hopefully we can invite you on the podcast again sometime.
Dr. Lillian Rodriguez 24:17
Salamat din. Kung pwede pala ako mag plug ng konti?
Mikael Francisco 24:21
Sure sure. Sige po.
Dr. Lillian Rodriguez 24:22
So yung sa College of Science kasi na mention ko rin sayo na we are trying to set up yung mga programs for Sci Comm. So yung naisip namin ngayon is something for the kids. So meron kaming mga webinars na dinevelop dinedevelop na short lang mga one hour tapos very informal lang with our scientists. So so meron kami na for Earth day next week pero yung slots nun na fill up na. So yung sa mga susunod kung pwe pwede ibibigay din namin sa inyo para pwede din na either we create partnership or hopefully pwede nyong i share sa network nyo yung ganon.
Mikael Francisco 25:01
Yeah definitely. We’re we’re happy to share. Nag sha share kami ng mga ganyan sa ano e. Lalo na ngayon na everyone’s at home.
Dr. Lillian Rodriguez 25:08
Tsaka ang diba yung yung isang challenge natin sa Philippines yung building yung science culture kasi nga right now hindi diba. Hindi tayo naka pag may problem di tayo agad titingin sa data
Mikael Francisco 25:21
Sa syensya
Dr. Lillian Rodriguez 25:21
Or sa oo sa science. So sana yun yung ma-instill natin sa mga kids, na they start at a very young age na to value yung importance ng science.
Mikael Francisco 25:34
Yes tama yan. Trust in science and trust the scientific method. Nanjan ang mga sagot sa problema natin.
Dr. Lillian Rodriguez 25:40
Yes
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